True® Christian...

. . . so, a True® Christian, an atheist, and an apostate walk into a bar . . .

Way back in or about 1999 I became an atheist, after 25 years as a bible believing Christian. At some point soon after losing my faith, I informed my dear Christian friend Don of my new religious status. We no longer lived near each other, so I did it via letter.  Don was (and still is) a traveling evangelist, preaching mostly (if not exclusively) in Baptist Churches.

Many Baptist congregations hold to the doctrine of "Once saved, always saved". This is also referred to as "Eternal Security" or "Eternal Salvation" or "Perseverance of the Saints". Once a person becomes a Christian they will remain a Christian. It is impossible (in their mind) for a person to get "saved" and then become "unsaved". Because of this belief, I have had occasions to discuss with Christians the "once saved, always saved" doctrine, followed by the accusation that, if you are not a Christian now, you were never a Christian then. Often they will add the word "True" before the word "Christian" which, I guess, is a qualifier - their attempt at making sure that I understand that I may have been a believer, but I was never a "True" believer - I guess.

Anyway, to investigate the "official" position that my friend Don holds concerning "Salvation" and "Eternal Security" I went to the "What We Believe" page of his ministry website - here is the pertinent excerpt:

Security of the Believer
We believe that the Lord is able to keep all who believe in Christ and that the Holy Spirit permanently indwells and seals them for eternity. Therefore, since salvation is wholly of the Lord, apart from the works of man, we hold that the believer is kept by the power of God through faith unto eternal salvation.

Who determines if a person believes or not? I suspect the person themselves do the determining.  I mean, believing is a function of the mind, and the only way for anyone to know that I believe anything is if they ask me and I tell them. When I knew Don way back in the early to mid 1980's I am sure that he was confident - THEN - that I "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior" - THEN -  just as I held the same confidence that his belief was genuine.

So it seems that, if I was indeed a "believer" back in the '80's, when I was attending church with him on a regular basis, based on his "What We Believe" page, he believes that I would still be a Christian today . . . I think.

Let's explore a tad farther.

After I had informed him of my loss of faith, in one of his responses he writes this (note - my real name is covered - I use a pseudonym because Christians frighten me):



As can be seen in the first paragraph, he doesn't believe that I am an atheist. He believes that I was a Christian back then and am - sort of - still a Christian now - "Because of (my) former belief in God and profession of Christ as (my) savior." He seems confident that my former belief in God and acceptance of Jesus was genuine. 

Based on the comparison of my former belief and acceptance of Jesus, and my current loss of belief, in his mind, I haven't gone from Christian to atheist, but from Christian to apostate . . . or perhaps almost-apostate. He was still holding out hope that I was not quite an apostate yet, because apparently once you become an apostate, there is no turning back.  Apparently once you sink to a certain apostate level you can never rise back up to a previous level - but I have no idea how one can tell whether someone is an apostate or almost-apostate. I wonder if it is kind of like Apostate and True® Apostate?

 

It seems to me that he is saying that no Christian can become an atheist. If a Christian ceases to believe in God they become apostates. In order to become an atheist, one has to become an atheist BEFORE they become a Christian . . .? That's right - in order to not believe in God, you have to do so BEFORE you believe in God.  You can never stop believing in God once you started believing in God . . . ? . . . or something of that sort.

Why doesn't any of this make sense?

  

But what is even more perplexing is that Don says that once I become an apostate, I am "doomed for everlasting destruction" and "will suffer the greater damnation in hell".  I honestly don't understand this.  Is it - "once saved always saved" - but - "if, after becoming a Christian you become an apostate you will burn in hell", which is just the same as never being a Christian in the first place, only worse . . . ?

And how can it be true (according to my friend Don) that a Christian can become an apostate and burn in hell - when at the same time it is true that (again, according to my friend Don) " . . . the Lord is able to keep all who believe in Christ . . . the Holy Spirit permanently indwells and seals them for eternity . . . the believer is kept by the power of God through faith unto eternal salvation."

Both of these arguments cannot be true at the same time - why - because they are what we call contradictory beliefs.

This is all a perfect example of the contortions that Christians will go through in an attempt to make sense of this ancient cult belief that they are trying desperately to maintain.

Anyway, I came across this on his blog:
A SOLEMN WARNING AGAINST APOSTASY
Apostasy is defined as a falling away from the faith; abandoning the truth; a departure from the faith of Christ.

By contrast, Wikipedia says: Apostasy is the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion that is contrary to one's previous religious (or political) beliefs.

What's odd is that since I have become an "apostate", I am at least as (if not more so) nice, empathetic, compassionate, caring, and generous as I ever was as a bible-believing Christian.  I am a better person as an atheist - oops, I mean apostate - than I ever was as a bible believer.  So, apparently, de-converting from Christian to apostate is what, better for society, better for me and those around me . . . ?

One more thought - in my last correspondence with Don, those many years ago, I posed this question to him:  ". . . since I no longer believe in God, was I ever actually "saved"?  I then said: "I know the answer to that question, I just want to see what yours is."  

He never answered.

Allow me to offer my answer - NO, I was never "saved".  I was a Christian but I was never "saved". 

 

I will offer a brief explanation of how a person can be a Christian but not be "saved" in my next post.

bob

r.u.reasonable@gmail.com