In Defense of Water Baptism by Immersion . . . ?

 

Hallelujah, Hallelujah !

The drought has been broken.  After more than two years and 170 page visits, my blog post titled Water Baptism has a serious problem - concerning the practice of this deadly sacrament - has finally gotten a comment, and that comment is from a Christian . . .

~ Hallelujah ~

Now, I have to be completely honest - this comment was not the result of some random Christian who just stumbled upon my blog post.  This comment was solicited - well - sort of.  I didn't ask specifically for her to leave a comment.  I would rather she responded to me via email.  My email (below) should explain - and note - she did say that she enjoys "debating atheists".

~ ~ ~

Greetings Diana,

Bob here, former bible believer for 25 years of my life (age 17 to my early 40's), now an atheist for the past 20+ years.  I have no education beyond high school and am the author of no books.  

I plan on perusing your blog and reading what I find interesting. 

 

From your about page:

I was a homeschool mom to eight kids and I have six granddaughters. I enjoy debating atheists, ...
Contact:
Diana

Since you offered your email I figured I would see if you had a few minutes to read one specific post from my blog.  I have invited numerous Christians to read this blog post and to offer their comments via email.  It has been over two years and over 150 people have visited that blog post and as of yet, not a single Christian has responded to my invitation to respond privately via email.

Not knowing what your beliefs are concerning the sacrament of water baptism by immersion, I would still appreciate your feedback - or - if you have little interest in the subject but happen to know any Christians who would be interested, please forward my invitation to them. 

I believe my approach to the subject is perhaps unique, simply because I cannot find anyone on the web who has explored water baptism from the perspective that I have explored.

My blog post on water baptism

Thank you for your consideration.

bob

somequestionsforgod.blogspot.com

~ ~ ~

Notice specifically this passage in my email: I have invited numerous Christians to read this blog post and to offer their comments via email.  It has been over two years and over 150 people have visited that blog post and as of yet, not a single Christian has responded to my invitation to respond privately via email.

I had hoped that it was clear that I would like any response to be via email, but alas, my wish was ignored.  I just do not think the comment section of a blog post is a productive venue for carrying on any meaningful dialogue - and lets face it, any dialogue that concerns a religious practice that has resulted in uncountable deaths should be "meaningful", shouldn't it?

 

Well, it looks like I was wrong.  Based on the comment that Diana left, she does not, in any way, agree with my blog post title - Water Baptism has a serious problem - nor the content of that post.  Allow me to do a quick analysis - her words in blue below:

Diana

June 11, 2023

 

Wow. This is a lot of research. You contacted me about this post and this is my answer:

All of us live on a precipice. None of us know when our last breath will be taken. 

I agree.  In spite of all the safeguards that us humans put in place in an attempt to minimize risk, we know that there is still a risk of failure.  Even people who intentionally participate in "risky" behavior often try to minimize risk during that behavior by wearing safety gear.

At least those who were being baptized were open to God. They were preparing themselves to be with him. 

Regardless of what the victims motivations were, they died as a direct result of participating in this sacrament.  The main thrust of my entire blog post was to illustrate that the practice of water baptism by immersion - ESPECIALLY - in natural bodies of water, has been, is, and will continue to be deadly to many who participate.

Will you be ready to meet him?

Oh for fucks sake! Barely three lines into your comment and you are already trying to win me for Jesus.  Diana - I am a FORMER CHRISTIAN.  I am now an ATHEIST.  Why would you be asking me if I will be ready to meet a god that doesn't exist ???

This world is filled with tragedy and injustice. 

Yep!  And death by water baptism is just another example of a "tragedy" that could have been very easily avoided.  The person(s) who invented this practice however many thousands of years ago obviously didn't have the foresight to recognize the dangers.  But what excuse do modern Christians have?  Ignorance?  Blind obedience?  Ignorance as a direct result of religious indoctrination?  All of the above? 

Thankfully, this life isn’t all there is. There is hope in Jesus to live again. 

Wrong.  There in no good reason for anyone to believe in an afterlife - NONE!  Believing due to the words in a 2,000 year old book is not a good reason.  It is actually a bad reason.

And that is why tens of thousands of believers have died unnecessarily - they exercised bad reasoning.  They were influenced to believe something that is evidently not true, and that belief resulted in their submitting to a religious ritual and drowning to death.

Why were the apostles almost all martyred? Jesus foresaw that too. Yet they all kept preaching the Gospel even though they were hated by most of the world.

Off topic Diana.  Stay focused.  We are talking about water baptism by immersion!

God put humanity in a perfect setting. But humans make stupid mistakes. They drink and drive, baptize in rushing water, eat the fruit from the wrong tree, or reject the offer to have their sins covered.

(yawn) Come on Diana, this is very simple. None of the tens of thousands of people (many were children) would have drowned during water baptism if the practice (sacrament) of water baptism was never invented in the first place.  Natural bodies of water can be dangerous.  You know that, I know that.  

I have personally rescued three children who might have drowned had I not been there and noticed what was happening.  

1 - I was but a lad of 10 years old back in the late 60's enjoying a day of swimming recreation with family and friends when I noticed a much younger child, with a worried look on her face, float past me on a very small Styrofoam board, about to be swept under a bridge and out into the Pacific Ocean, which was just beyond the bridge. I grabbed her and pulled her to the river bank and walked her to her parents, who had no idea what had just happened.

2 - I was in my late teens back in the mid 70's, swimming with friends in the ocean.  I noticed the younger brother of my friend struggling in the waves, being pulled farther out as he struggled to swim toward the shore.  I had my swim fins on so I was more able to fight against the strong pull of the outward tide.  I easily swam out, grabbed him with one hand and in a minute or two had him standing in waist deep water.

3 - I was sitting poolside as my young son was taking swimming lessons.  During one segment he was having to swim across the pool, touch the other side, then swim back.  It was on the swim back part that I observed him beginning to struggle - he was tiring and losing his forward momentum, struggling to keep his mouth above water.  I had quickly observed that neither of the instructors were paying attention.  At about the mid point in the pool, he went under.  Before I knew it I was air-born.  I could hear the instructors at that point hollering "NO, NO, NO" at me but it was obviously to late.  I carried him to the pools edge and he was fine after that.

Then, I did a foolish thing and I almost drowned myself. 

4 - A few years ago I went kayaking in a boat that I had never been in before, on river conditions that I had never experienced before, and within about 90 seconds after launching I had flipped over in rapids while trying to help someone else who had gotten their kayak lodged under some low-hanging tree branches along the river bank.  Fortunately I was in a group of perhaps 20 experienced kayakers, and fortunately I was wearing my flotation vest.  Otherwise, I likely would have drowned.

Natural bodies of water are dangerous!

They also act heroically, humbly, and wisely. They love others and love God. They rescue those in danger and care for the weak. This is the human condition. They have free wills to choose good or evil. 

Way off topic again Diana.  Stay focused.

I appreciate that those who were being baptized chose Christ. Little did they know how close they were to death. 

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If the bible never said this, then those people would never have drowned during water baptism because there never would have been such a sacrament as water baptism.

None of us knows but all of us can be prepared. Today is the day of salvation! “So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts … “ (Hebrews 3:7-8)

More useless evangelism.  

Well, I had high hopes that there would be a good chance for meaningful dialogue with regard to water baptism by immersion.  It now appears that my hope was in vain. 

I get the distinct impression that if Diana attended a water baptism by immersion on any given Sunday, and if someone drowned during the process - on the following Sunday Diana would be standing on the shore, cheering on the next convert(s) being water baptized by immersion.  She would be undeterred, and would view any drowning during any baptism procedure to be . . . 

"Meh"

~ ~ ~ 

This we can know:

Either the men who invented this practice were cruel and/or ignorant . . .

- or - 

the god who invented this practice was cruel and/or ignorant . . .

- but most definitely - 

the men who continue this dangerous practice today are 

cruel and/or ignorant.

bob

r.u.reasonable@gmail.com