The Things Christians Say part 6b - or - The Delusion is Strong With this One

 


Beginning at about the 31:00 minute mark in the discussion on the Skeptics and Seekers podcast:

Mac says: " . . . God does inform people on what is right and wrong via his revealed word, via their consciences, via the holy spirit, all these things and its not simply that humans are left to themselves to come up with what's right and whats wrong.  And that doesn't also mean that there can't be atheists who are better people like morally speaking than a Christian."
Mac claims that humans derive their morality from god via three sources:
The bible
Human conscience
The holy spirit
He finished his claim by admitting that atheists, not only can be as moral as Christians, but can even be more moral than Christians.

So, let me get this straight - God instills good morals in Christians by three sources (bible, conscience, holy spirit) but for an atheist who doesn't read the bible and is not indwelt, or at least "informed" by this holy spirit, the atheists only source for good morals would be his conscience - is that a correct understanding of Mac's claim?  
If this is Mac's contention, then surely he should be able to explain how and why so many Christians, with their access to multiple moral sources, still can't seem exhibit good moral behavior when compared to an atheist who has (supposedly) only one moral source?

But what is Mac's excuse for why Christians are NOT better people, morally - he says that Christians are " . . . still human at the end of the day . . . " and " . . . the essence of Christianity is not that it makes you like, perfect . . . ".

This is a pathetic excuse.  It is blatantly obvious (to any reasonable observer) that there is nothing "perfect" in the actions and attitudes of Christians.  No atheist is expecting "perfect" behavior from any Christian.  The question is and should be - does Christianity make Christians consistently better behaved than atheists?  And the obvious answer is a resounding 
NO!

I have done numerous blog posts about Christian men in church leadership (pastors and youth ministers) from numerous denominations, who have been arrested and charged with sex crimes against (mostly) children in their church.  Incident after incident after incident, the lists go on and on (links below), Christian pastors taking sexual advantage of young children, over and over again:
 

Does Mac not know about this?  Has he never simply googled "Minister arrested" or "Pastor arrested"?  If he did, what he would find is (as I found) numerous Christian men in church leadership who have been arrested, and those arrests made it into the news, and most of those arrests are sex crimes against children.
  
Next Mac claims: " . . . Christianity has the best track record on the planet for human flourishing and freedom . . . "
What planet is Mac from?  Has he ever even heard the word "slavery".  Someone please ask him if he has any idea who the slave owners were in the US - were they Christians or were they atheists?  
Wikipedia: In 1845, the Southern Baptists separated from the Triennial Convention in order to support slavery, which the southern churches regarded as "an institution of heaven". During the 19th and most of the 20th century, it played a central role in Southern racial attitudes, supporting racial segregation and the Lost Cause of the Confederacy while opposing interracial marriage.
Human Flourishing?  Freedom?

How about the Crusades and the Reformations?  How was the human flourishing and freedom during those wonderful Christian times?

Next Mac claims: " . . . Christianity is responsible for western civilization as we know it today . . . "
And that's a good thing?  
Lets just look at the two most Christian states in the US:
Alabama - 80% Protestant, 7% Catholic
Mississippi - 79% Protestant 4% Catholic

Maternal Mortality:
As of 2021, Mississippi was the worst and Alabama was near the worst.
Note - The USA, a "western civilization" that "Christianity is responsible for", has a maternal mortality rate of 21 deaths per 100,000 live births.  Sweden, the least religious country, has 4.5 deaths per 100,000 live births.

Infant Mortality:
Mississippi has the highest in the country, then Arkansas, then Alabama.

Poverty:
Mississippi has the highest poverty rate.  Alabama ranks 7th.

Divorce Rate:
Alabama ranks #4.  Mississippi #9.

Education:
Mississippi ranks just above Arkansas at #49.  Alabama is #45.

Is this the "western civilization" that Mac is crediting Christianity for?

And finally, Mac says: " . . . it is superior to other worldviews like secularism or humanism"
This is just another perfect example of Mac proving, once again, that he hasn't the slightest idea what he is saying, but he's gonna say it anyway.



In essence, what Mac has shown over and over again is that he is intellectually incapable of discussing a religious topic based on what he actually KNOWS.  Every discussion with him is polluted with his BELIEFS, but he never states that these are simply his BELIEFS.  He always communicates as if what he is stating is a FACT - because - he can't tell the difference between the two.  His rationalization is entirely motivated by his beliefs, making a productive discussion with him 

IMPOSSIBLE 

. . . but I applaud David for trying, again, and again.

When in dialogue with a Christian, the goal of the non believer should never be to convince the Christian that his beliefs are wrong.  Instead, the goal should be to persuade the Christian to admit to himself that he simply doesn’t know what he thinks he knows.  That is the chief problem with the Christian mindset - they have confused belief with knowledge.

~RS


I treasure knowledge, not belief - if you are trying to convince me that a proposition is true, you had better make sure that you KNOW it is true, not merely BELIEVE it is true.  If you merely believe it is true - I   WILL   FIND   OUT.

~RS


Dear Christian Conservative, if you are determined to hold so tenaciously to your beliefs that you will not - can not - be persuaded by any facts or evidence, please tell me that at the beginning of our conversation so that I don’t waste my time.

~RS


bob

r.u.reasonable@gmail.com


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